to all "civilized" individuals complaining of "peasants" and "sheep" downtown
I think most of you are doing a not-so-bad job in hiding your disgust for your fellow lebanese (yes, Lebanese I dared type!) demonstrators under the slogans of 'the constitution', 'democracy' 'anti-syrian/iranian' and 'pro-national unity'..very nice work so far. but see, some people are too transparent. I mean really it's starting to seem as if you have something real personal against those lebanese men and women, i dont know, could it be the way they're dressed, the minimal use of french/english/'westernized' protocols..or the fact that they are camped out in front of buddha bar with their argiles and stuff...? horror!
a few examples:
- name calling: syrians, iranians (not that there's anything wrong with it, but fyi, they're as lebanese as you are- whatever that means), traitors, sheep, dirty/uncivilized, monkeys performing tricks, terrorists (you're starting to remind me of bush and his racist friends by the way)..etc etc
- direct advice: on how to conduct 'clean' 'civilized' demonstrations just as those carried out by the march 14 'secular' 'intellectuals'
- indirect advice: on how these primitive demonstrations are absurd because 'soon they'll all be back to the gutters they came from'..and so on and so forth, you get the picture
the music is fading, and your words can be clearly heard. enough with the arrogance. the double standards. the ignorance. the delusions. etc. etc.
a few examples:
- name calling: syrians, iranians (not that there's anything wrong with it, but fyi, they're as lebanese as you are- whatever that means), traitors, sheep, dirty/uncivilized, monkeys performing tricks, terrorists (you're starting to remind me of bush and his racist friends by the way)..etc etc
- direct advice: on how to conduct 'clean' 'civilized' demonstrations just as those carried out by the march 14 'secular' 'intellectuals'
- indirect advice: on how these primitive demonstrations are absurd because 'soon they'll all be back to the gutters they came from'..and so on and so forth, you get the picture
the music is fading, and your words can be clearly heard. enough with the arrogance. the double standards. the ignorance. the delusions. etc. etc.
posted by Laila K at
18:12
55 Comments:
laila, you called them lebanese? how dare you! how unpatriotic of you.
loved this post!
Finally, someone saying it like it is and my friend you've only touched the tip of the iceberg ...
Ya 3ayb el choum bass ...never in my life was I ashamed of the actions (and stances) of other Lebanese then NOW ...
lok eih!
yeslamleh rabbik!
i was just disgusted as you and wrote about nearly the same subject here:
http://hilalchouman.blogspot.com/2006/12/blog-post_116549450991708879.html
I second rouba and amb.
Have you ever wondered why they're being called names? It could be arrogance in some cases true.
However, do you watch Al Manar, NBN and NTV like I do all every night and hear the name calling they do? Try once and tell me if you can stand listening for more than 5 minutes without a break running to the kitchen or making a phone call or just switching off the TV. Could it be that it is a retaliation? I am not saying it is a healthy and correct one but it is human.
With regards to Buddha Bar and all, do you know that people are suffocating not being able to do anything because the streets are not safe, that they run home as soon as the sun goes down and stay in, that people are suffocating because businesses are shut down and they're being laid off and things are getting worse by the day and why is all that for? ... starting with my family ...
I am not saying that the atmosphere there which is driving people nuts gives them the right to say whatever they're saying but we need to understand the emotional and psychological situation they reached and which is pushing them to be aggressive in return.
I think it's long overdue to split the country into 2 parts, and annex one of it to Syria and the other to Israel. I don't give a fuck which part goes to whom because I'll be making my millions in the US and I don't give a crap about that uncivilized piece of crap land. And yes Laila I know you know who this is...
Thanks , etc etc...
AM..I completely understand your point of view, and I know the whole atmosphere must be unbelievably edgy and unbearable, I think this is one of the objectives of those demonstrations, to paralyze the country and force the government to negotiate/step down or who the hell knows what, this is not the point here. the point is simply that when things get rough, people tend to lose control and start to show what they really feel towards one group or another, which would not normally happen in situations where everything is going smoothly and where everyone is comfortable. and what i am reading at different blogs and whats circulating in emails, and what im hearing from my own friends is just shocking revolting and shameful to say the least, and is absolutely unacceptable in my book.
anon, whatever floats your boat dear, it all depends on what you value in life versus what you see as trivial and 'uncivilized crap'..
So Leila, excuse my ignorance or stupidity, but what did you really mean? by this post? why don't You call things by their name because i have a hard time figuring out what you really meant.
Mononoke:
Why are you projecting?
Why do you think you're better than the rest?
"is it because of how they are dressed?". What's that supposed to mean? Not enough "Sunnis" in the Hariri crowd who cover up and who don't "Parlez francais" for you? No covered up Pro-Jumblatt old Durzi ladies? None in that crowd you figure might actually prefer "argiles" over "Bhudda Bar"?
You're all for dismantling sectarianism. Well then, let's start with a party that calls itself "The Party of God". Or is that not sectarianism in action for you?
Conversely, don't you think there are people in the "Opposition" who fit the whole shallow Lebanese profile who like to go to Bhudda Bar? Have collugen injections and breast implants? And Parlez Francais Anglais and Espanol to boot!
You can't change everyone, but try and start by removing blinders from your eyes, passing judgement on others, and projecting what may be true in one instance to all those who support the government.
Paul, I dont understand what you dont understand :) bil3arabeh limshabra7, "some", and I stress some, bloggers and supporters from the march 14 camp have this condescending attitude when it comes to the shiaa demonstrators, as if being a shiite implies, by default, an individual with less rights and who is lower 'class' than someone who is not shiite. is that clear enough? if not, you can start with the ouwet blog (www.ouwet.com) and i'll be more than glad to email you more links.
baby salad,
first of all: I miss you. you should call.
back to your comment
1) 'why do you think you're better than the rest': where did I mention that? I think I have the right to state my opinion and to point out what I think is insulting to a certain group of people.
2)" Not enough "Sunnis" in the Hariri crowd who cover up and who don't "Parlez francais" for you..etc
come on, what do you take me for...did you read the title of my post? this post is directed to 'specific' individuals 1-who specifically 'parlez francais', and are really bummed that buddha bar is out of business 2-who are intentionally insulting and mocking the demonstrations based on sect, and specifically because they DO NOT 'parlez francais', and do not have the hots for buddha bar. that's the point of my post. but you missed it. I am not generalizing or stating my opinion about a general attitude of sunnis or druze or christians. i hope this is clear now.
3) the party of god.
naturally, anyone who opposes march 14 and in any way shape or form sympathizes with people's rights for a government which justly represents them (according to their criteria) is immediately a march 8 follower. I'm not a member of the party of god. I do not support the party of god. I have major problems with the party of god. I have major problems with god.
sectarianism is off topic here. this is about equality. when march 14 demonstrate, it's a noble revolution, but when the shiaa and aounist opposition do, it's anything but.
4) again, you assumed that I am generalizing, which is absolutely untrue and unfair. again, it's in bold green :)
5) I dont think I'm blind, if I were I would be following someone else, given my greek orthodox church conservative upbringing. but please correct me, maybe I have not lived in lebanon as long as you have, and therefore have hazy opinions concerning some aspects of our unique lebanese society :)
I'm in Mtl for the next week. Try and come down. I heard you went down a few weeks back, but I couldn't make it.
1) where did I mention that? I think I have the right to state my opinion and to point out what I think is insulting to a certain group of people.
You didn't say that. But you're doing what everyone else does. Don't pick on the "shallow" crowd, because you don't like their priorities. Maybe if there were more "shallow" people around, there would be less problems in the world.
3)when march 14 demonstrate, it's a noble revolution, but when the shiaa and aounist opposition do, it's anything but.
I don't think that is the issue here. This government was elected- whether or not it is representative.
And for the past year, Hizballah and its "allies of convenience" have done their utmost to make sure its dysfunctional.
What do Aoun and HN want veto power over? An international tribunal to investigate the string of political killings?
Or is Aoun going to fix the country's economic problems and create jobs for people? Is he planning to get France to donate millions of dollars to Lebanon based on his current political alignment? Or is he expecting Iran to bankroll the economic boom coming around the corner for Lebanon?
"March 14th" never demonstrated this way. Their demonstration was over a political murder, and yes, that is a noble cause. It was over the extension of a Presidency that was unconstitutional.
You lived in Canada long enough. Is our government ever "representative" enough. A party wins, and they get the top jobs. That's how it works. Next time around, another election comes along and another party wins.
Give this government a chance to fix things. Tell Hizballah not to take unilateral actions damaging to the country's economic health. And give them 4 years. They screw up. Vote them out of office.
But what the "opposition" is doing now is simply unreasonable.
5) Yes, given my many years of living in Lebanon, I have come to the conclusion that Lebanese people are trite, shallow people :).
Siniora's seems like a good guy, with solid economic background. Give the guy a chance.
Anyways, it looks like the mission is going. So try and come up to Mtl and we'll slug it out over some beavertails :).
ensalada nina,
1) I SO do not agree :)
3) I never said it wasnt (noble). but you forgot a tiny event that occured since then. whether we like it or not, the july war resulted in a shift in power to HA that is anything but insignificant. this is what is different now, and this is what makes the current government (which incidentally had allied with HA in the 2005 elections) problematic given the new situation.
man, all I want is for those people is to sit down and talk. all i want is not to see this country sink into hate and fear again. but, some things just piss me off and you know how i like to express myself :)
(cant make it to Mtl, going to lebanon in a couple of weeks- have fun and take good care of my little one)
beavertails! I hate you :(
yeslam hattemm....I tried to say it early on on LBF...
thanx for voicing it so clearly here.
Shame on you, you are playing as dirty as everybody else..if this not dividing I wonder what is.
You want to be fair,write some of the slogans that has been said to the sunnis,just to be fair. Both sides are to blame.
right.
When people follow blindly their leaders, they deserve (with a medal) to be called sheep. Whether it is hizballa or FPM.
When their leaders call on their gods every time there is a war; when a victory is called divine or when they start their political discussion with a prayer, yes they are blind. blinded with what has nothing to do with politics.
I wonder what god has to say about this.
For what it's worth, Salad, I second you with every word you wrote. I am still controlling myself and trying not to go nuts on my blog writing what I really think about the points you mentioned below, so thank you, it was a real fasshit khele2.
Points you mentioned above lol as my comment shows at the bottom now lol, ah blah, just being silly ;)
paul,
"When people follow blindly their leaders, they deserve to be called sheep. Whether it is hizballa or FPM"
hahaha. seriously?! only Hizballa and FPM? what about the rest? god forbid they might blindly follow their leaders eh? it's not even an option.
am,
why did u neglect future tv?
laila wanted to say that there is a trend of dealing with these protestors from an arrogant and racist attitude. i guess u all heard the jokes about dirtiness and sheeps and other respectable aspects. that's all.
these protestors have the right to protest as others did for two years. it is as simple as that.
I'm supposed to go home next week, but seriously thinking of cancelling. I'll probably spend the holidays over here, but will then again be on US soil between Jan 12 - 20. If in any possibility I do end up going to Beirut, I plan to wear a Batman suit and go meet the crowds in DT.
Mashrou3 FC still on. Just a matter of time I guess... and I can already feel a comment brewing up with Rouba.
Whoever anon is, he or she has in all likelihood received some head from Sabah (el sha7roora)
dont cancel beej..i've always wanted to be catwoman.
Mononoke:
If you must go, avoid the crowds.
My trip is postponed until tomorrow at the earliest, so I should still be in town the following weekend.
Which means you have enough time to come up :).
G
Hilal,
I mentioned the channels I did to show that the other side is not doing a bad job at name calling either and definitely NOT because I like FTV or any other, never did and chances are I will never do.
Leila's post gave the impression of defending one side against the other. It is useless to defend one against the other, they are all the same.
If these blame the others of being Syrians, the others are doing an equally if not better job at calling their opponents Israelis, etc, etc.
AM, I suggest you reread my post before rushing to conclusions as to which side I am on. your (and others') statement of me 'defending' one party over another is as superficial as it gets. it's ridiculous to assume that once one criticizes X's behavior, then he MUST BE rooting for Y. but thats just me.
"I think most of you are doing a not-so-bad job in hiding your disgust for your fellow lebanese ..."
Here is a view... A prime minister was assassinated (love or hate him is irrelevant but interesting that all parties were supposidly sad and wanted justice) and an investifation was kicked off pointing to syria... so why would any Lebanese (who care about Lebanon only or Lebanon first... understanding/respecting further nationalistic ideology) would reject or oppose the completion of that investigation? That could be part of the "reason" why some Lebanese are not hiding their disgust as you start with your article... especially that the assassinations have not stopped which clearly will lead to further hatred/disgust, etc which could be part of the plan... whose plan? Let's not go there :)
IMHO A "Lebanese" should think of Lebanon first for any of their "causes"...
I cannot believe how a simple post like this - which I totally identify with - can turn into such a big discussion.
When one group protests, it is because it is thinking of Lebanon and Lebanon only.
But when another group protests, it is because it not thinking about Lebanon AT ALL?
Leila,
I said 'Leila's post gave the impression of defending one side against the other.'
I never mentioned you're on this or that side.
So when you say 'it's ridiculous to assume that once one criticizes X's behavior, then he MUST BE rooting for Y. but thats just me.', I totally agree, I never said you're rooting for Y in the first place.
My take is that you looked at one side, ignoring what the other side is going through and being called, with no assumption of rooting and whatnot. But that's your blog eventually and I am just commenting ;)
george, the tribunal issue is not an ends by itself..
AM, ok :)
now you post something, break is over :)
Not sure I buy it. Nasrallah's cause is in the interest of an Arabic cause... Great and most respected for that Resistence and ideology (seperate debate), but that is more/different than a Lebanese cause...
Actually, why would the "Lebanese" need an armed militia in Lebanon besides the Army now that Syria is out and the UN is in the south unless there is another reason or cause which is different than the Lebanese agenda... so this agenda is what creates the divide, but let us be honest about the agendas and not mask them... that is the fundamental problem that you have in the divide ... that simple or complex depending how you look at it.
is cutting down trees to use as charcoal for arguile considered civilized?
george..what army??
and what is the 'lebanese' agenda? please define it for me. As long as Israel continues to invade an inch of land in the south, HA will not let go of their weapons. what is the alternative to protect their land from future random aggression?
z, absolutely not.
George:
You're being kind to Hizballah's motives. Playing on an Arab sour point is good politics. Don't turn it into idealogy. Lest you be doubtful, look over to the actions of HN's Iraqi counterpart, the indefatigable Sadr who's busy planting discord between communities.
Laila: You referred to the South as "their" land, though I'm sure that the drive to a Unified Lebanese idealogy necessitates that we refer to that area as "our" land.
I'm not sure if you're entirely comfortable with the idea that a group who's calling for "national unity" in the gvmt should be equally as eager to make unilateral decisions on foreign policy vis-a-vis the Israeli Lebanese border.
I watched HN give his speech that had he thought the Israelis would be so monstrous, he would not have subjected Lebanon to the war. I doubt the sincerity of the sentiment. But we should give people the benefit of the doubt. Let's say he's sincere, the episode meant only that his judgement is not as polished as he'd have us believe...
Anyways, I second his sentiment. It's time for a Unity Government. Here's what he has to do to achieve that:
1- Dissolve unilateral HA decision making. Dissolve HA arms. If "they" can fight from without the army. Then they can fight from "within" it. The non-confessional state paradigm means that Lebanese of all stripes should be responsible to fight "occupation".
2- Make Iranian funds to Lebanon (they are of course giving the "Lebanese" money and not only the "Shia"- lest one gets the impression that HA is acting in a sectarian way), transparent to all Lebanese, so that they can be spent in a non-confessional manner.
For it's part then, the government should agree to setting up a committee to oversee spending of foreign aid (Lebanon is apparently an economic basket case), that is bipartisan. This should assuage "Opposition" concern about "corruption".
Don't hold your breath though. None of this will happen, because none of this is the core issue driving the politics of the Middle East right now.
Hail the ISG! Lebanon will be sold out once again. And in the months and years to come, we'll find out who had a better whiff of the blowing winds. Jumblatt or Aoun.
salad,
i referred to the 'south' as their land to highlight the our differences in what we consider a justifiable reason to resist Israeli occupation. The Shebaa farms are apparently unimportant for you guys, and you'd rather see HA disarm before freeing those lands from Israeli occupation. Clearly HA has different priorities.
No am, they are not all the same... For many reasons: When someone from the 14th of March says something against Hizballa/Syria, they get killed. So, no, it's NOT the same.
There is no point in arguing which group speaks better French, or is dressed better, but you can argue other aspects, like age, and education.
Also, i remember the 14th of March having THE SAME CLEAR objectives, i don't see that with Hizballa & 3oon.
You can't possibly believe that 3oon wants Hizballa's weapons to stay? You can't possibly believe that Hizballa cares if 3oon and his followers are "properly" represented.
I don't understand AT ALL what they want from the govt., i don't think anyone does, that's why they keep calling them sheep... It has nothing to do with how they look or how they talk.
I don't know what they mean when they say a "Clean govt"
Was the govt. "clean" when the Syrians where in power? I didn't see anyone protesting back then.
At the end of the day, yes, they are all Lebanese, and beneath it all, they have the same priorities and dreams, but there leaders DON'T.
Jooj, it's not the protest, it's the timing, and the reasons behind it. We are coming out of a war, this is not the time to cripple the economy. Elections are coming up sooner or later, why the hurry? Why create this panic and open doors we might not be able to close?
I know why... but do you?
When you can't find the truth, always resort to your logic.
The only conclusion i can come with to explain this scurrying is the one that no one wants to hear.
Those who killed Hariri will do ANYTHING to stop the International Court.
They will push with all there strengths to stop it. So they use 3oon & Nasralla... Who also happen to have there own agenda, which might have nothing to do with the International Court. But thats how they all stay afloat.
So when someone says LEBANON first, this is what they are talking about.
You don't make political "marriages" with groups that don't have the same vision you have... cause that could lead to a disaster. Do you think if 3oon is president, he will let Hizballa be? NO WAY. He will be the first to turn on them, cause he doesn't share there believes or values. (I'm not talking about religious believes)
This would lead to a civil war.
This is not "we7deh watanayyeh", this is masaale7 w bas.
laila, a belated thank you for tis beautiful post, but in one of your post-post comments replying to someone else's comments, you said you have a major problem with god.
you have this right, but i would just like to remind you (just a reminder) that god made you, provides you with daily sustenance such as oxygen and blood and nutrition and emotion and a mind, and has given you the ability to think things through, and the ability to reach for wisdom, and even allows you to be angry and confused and be contrary, even the right and privilege to object to god, and god gives you infinite subtle and not-so-subtle signs of his beauty and wonder, and ultimately wants us to find him in our quest. thank you for allowing me to speak my mind here.
ibn bint jbeil,
thanks for your kind words. I do envy you for truly believing in God and for your peace of mind. but for the time being i'm not that fortunate- i'm agnostic until further notice. so i dont exclude the possibility of the existence of a higher power, but i dont believe in 'God' as an 'omnipotent/omnipresent' entity.I hope that you wont have a problem with me speaking my mind as well :)
I just heard some of the leaders speak... I cast my final verdict:
NOT CIVILIZED AT ALL...
(zero civilization... w mech chemine ri7eta)
i think i've already stated that both your and my right to speak our mind, as well as our free will, have been bestowed upon us as a privilege to each of us;
i believe this to be an integral aspcet of our very nature as human beings, because we have been given the gift to think and choose.
it is a pleasure to converse with you. :]
Mononoke:
I think there's something cynical when pan-Arabist groups and SSNP talks about Shebaa being "Lebanese". Don't complain that Lebanon's borders are artificial entities created by greedy colonialists and then insist that the Shebaa are "Lebanese". And don't be part of 'Hizb-al-qawmi-al-souri' and then on the same breath assume to be able to define what is geographically "Lebanese".
I just think idealogues need to be a little consistent and honest.
If "they" are fighting for this land because "they" think that Lebanon should be the spearhead of the Arab-Israeli conflict... then they should make that statement clear. Without obfuscations!
And I wish Aoun eternal strength, but I expect him to do a little better than cynical sloganeering. If he thinks the gvmt's job is to fix the economy without increasing national debt (which he accuses them of failing in), then he should have the intellectual decency to acknowledge that being the spearhead of the Arab-Israeli conflict will have a collective cost, and he should have the decency of HN to at least accept that this is a cost he is willing to absorb!
Leafless Eve:
"You can't possibly believe that Hizballa cares if 3oon and his followers are "properly" represented."
:).
They called Blair "Bush's poodle", but Aoun has given a new meaning to the word poodle.
I think one should always recall that Aoun has always had a gripe with the "electoral law"- read as proper representation, even before his current alliance.
And it would serve all to recall also that Hizballah was quite happy with the electoral law. They didn't even throw him a bone back then. It seems "proper" representation was not high on its agenda before.
But that was then, and Aoun was that figure who sat with the Americans. And Ahl-AlTayyar didn't have many kind words for La Resistance.
But that's Lebanon for you. Jumblatt perfected the art of cynicism, but the art has many takers!
Laila:
I apologize for hogging your site :). I have slow night shifts :).
salad,
I emailed G and asked her to pass you a sleeping pill or something :)
in fact, you could even write a post and i'll publish it for you, even if it's pro march 14. it just canNOT get any better :)
I love you all and your professional, politically correct communiques. Unfortunately, I still believe in words I said in July....you have no idea....
beej be nice
lol
To Eve, the assassinated ones does not excuse the Sectarianism of both sides a la racism promoted by both camps.
Whether you like it or not, when it comes to voting, their votes equate to yours.
BTW, I hate both camps and think they are avoidng to deal with the real problem: Sectarianism and Sect leaders.
Mononoke:
You missed out on a lavish meal at Gibby's today.
>> in fact, you could even write a post and i'll publish it for you, even if it's pro march 14. it just canNOT get any better :)
A special spot in your pages. A podium for Propagandizing. All this honor. It absolutely canNOT get any better! :).
[But why assume it'd be pro-Mar14 just because I give Aoun no respect :)? ]
What does "sectarianism" mean?
ensalada nina and leafless eve,
You have understood and expressed my thoughts better than I could have. Spot on!
Peace and Cheers...
I agree that there is some double standards in most cases from both sides, and I agree that name calling is not the solution.
But if I am feeling on the inside disapointed and angry, why should I hide it?
If I try to tell others calm down and let us be rational, and give them prood that they're being irrational, they get pissed. How can I not say they are being irrational, how can I not want to strangle them. but then again I remember they are as much Lebanese as I am, and I shut the hell up and wait for a miracle... unfortunately we cannot convince anyone of our point, and unfortunately, our only hope is that the leader comes to his sense again, and unfortunately, yes, many people are sheep, even we are although we fight, this is the system.
I absolutely love you for this post. You guys, we're all Lebanese here blogging (I think). But anyway, we NEED to recognize that it's not only future or LBC who insult the other parties, but it's also Manar and NTV. Killon at3ass min ba3ed. I never feel like I'm watching the akhbar anymore, I'm just watching a certain politicians view. Nothing is credible anymore, it's awful. Lebanon is the greatest nation on Earth, we need to cool it and stop letting Syria and America (EQUALLY) rule us. It's ridiculous. As for the tasteless insults, I'd like to point out that certain people are richer than others in Lebanon, and we shouldn't hate people because ma byilbso Prada, better yet, think of personality instead of Armani, Thank you. Long Live Lebanon
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